In Review

On this week's episode of Real Work, Real Life, after more than 60 interviews, today the tables are turned, and I’m the guest. My interviewer is my husband, Corey. If you’d like to learn more about his work, check out his episode on life as a Marine Engineer. In this interview, I answer all the questions I have asked my guests, but I also reflect a lot on what I have learned in this process, which as it turns out, is a lot of things. Before we get into, I just wanted to say how incredibly grateful I am to my guests, who took time out of their day to talk candidly about work with me, both strangers and dear friends and family. I’m also so grateful for the support of my friends and family through this process, I’ve learned more than I ever expected, and I can’t wait to share that all with you. 

Thank you all so much for listening, for coming on the show to talk with me, and all the notes of support. You can reach me at RealWorkRealLife@gmail.com. 

Transcript

Wrap Up

[00:00:00] Welcome to real work, real life, where I talk to real people about what they do for work and what that means for their lives. After more than 60 interviews today, the tables are turned and I'm the guest. My interviewer is my husband, Corey. If you'd like to learn more about his work, check out his episode on life as a Marine engineer. In this interview, I answer all the questions I have asked my guests, but I also reflect a lot on what I've learned in this process, which is it turns out is a lot of things. 

Before we get started. I just wanted to say how incredibly grateful I am to my guests who took time out of their day to talk candidly about work with me, both strangers and dear friends and family. I'm also so grateful for the support of my friends and family through this process. I've learned more than I ever expected. 

And I can't wait to share that with all of you. So let's get into it. 

Corey: All right. Well, this is exciting. It's fun for you to be on the other side 

Emily: I prefer to be on the original side.

Corey: the original [00:01:00] fair. Well, why don't you start us off by telling everybody that has been listening to your podcast, everybody that's been getting to know you through your recordings, what, what you do for work.

 I am a manager on a team of marketing analysts for a medium sized retailer. I,

Corey: can you just give us a little bit of a background, how you started, what was your undergrad in? What, what started off there?

Emily: I studied um, political science in undergrad. I thought I might want to maybe be a professor. Or I also thought about getting my, I would have had to get a PhD to do that, but I thought about getting a PhD and working in a think tank. And I still think that's actually a job I would have loved. But at the time I really didn't ever want to move to Washington, DC.

And I actually stand by that decision. I don't think I would have liked living in Washington, DC. And I wasn't sure what I wanted to do. So I ended up when I graduated, I went and I got a master of science at Maine [00:02:00] Maritime Academy, which is where I met you and I wasn't sure what I wanted to do with that.

I thought I might actually want to ship out for a little while and work On workboats on tugboats, probably, but the more real life approached and the more our life looked like a full life together. I realized I wanted to be home and dry every night. And when I, well, I, when I interviewed for jobs, people would sometimes say like, they would worry that I wanted to, would go leave that job and go work on boats.

And I said at the time, the people you need to worry about going to work on boats are the people that have never worked.

Corey: That's right. Well, yeah, you started, you actually part of your your, your training. When you're in school, you went up and worked on tugboats up in Alaska.

Emily: Yeah. Yeah. And, and, and so the, the master's degree I pursued was a master's degree of international business and logistics. And if I could do it again, I think I would advise someone to go work for a little while before they get a [00:03:00] master's degree. So they really know what they want. But at the time, you know, it was 2008, we're in the middle of a financial crisis.

I, it was kind of where I wanted to be. It was, you know, close to home again, and. I got my degree in two years and then my first job out of college, I was actually working as a buyer for a naval shipyard, which was a great starting job, but it was sort of the job I found, you know, I applied for so many jobs.

And this was the one that I, you know, had gone to the job fair and had some connections from school and I got that job and I learned a ton, but I knew it wasn't for me. I didn't really love negotiating, which is a big part of being a buyer in this particular job. It wasn't exactly the work environment I wanted.

And so I just started applying and I ended up getting a job at this retailer as a buyer, which that was one experience that has been true, at least in my [00:04:00] case, I'm sure it is not true across the board, but people will give this advice, like just start. You can always change later and to a certain degree that is true, but I will say that first job out of college, you know, I had a.

Undergraduate or my second job out of college. I had an undergraduate degree from an Ivy league university. I had a master's degree. I had three years of work experience and I applied for hundreds of jobs. And the only one I got was the job with the exact same title. I had no connections there. it was like, Oh, you are a buyer.

You'd like to be a buyer again. And so I, I did learn a little bit there of like, yes, just get started. Don't overthink it, try things. But it's also true that the further you go along, you get kind of in these paths and it can actually be kind of hard to break out of it. So, I don't know what the advice is there because it's sort of like pick right the first time.

I [00:05:00] don't know, but, but, but there is. There is an element of that. And what I did find was I got my foot in the door at this company, and then I was able to move to the marketing kind of marketing analytical side within that company once I had already had some good years there. So I think it's easier to move to something totally different within a company than it is to move from something different.

Yeah.

Corey: transitioned from kind of supply chain into marketing. If someone wanted to come out of school and go right into marketing, you probably would start out as like a marketing associate or whatever, some, some sort of junior job and then kind of work your way up from there. You did, you kind of, We're in this 1 role, and then you saw some other interesting things that you kind of want to pursue and therefore you went that route.

Right?

Emily: Yeah. Exactly.

Corey: But if someone wanted [00:06:00] to come out of school and get into marketing and marketing analytics.

Emily: Mm hmm.

Corey: What would you recommend them? Maybe, you know, I would probably say, like, marketing as a degree good, but also has the supply chain master's degree. Do you feel like that was beneficial?

Emily: That's tough to say. I bet it pushed me over the edge a couple of times in different job interviews, but I don't know that it was that necessary to get Where I am, but it's so hard to know. And I think also what I would say now is if you kind of hear this term and in different companies, marketing will do some things and analytics will do some things and some things will mix it all up.

You might hear like, data analysts, some people in this sort of work will be data scientists, some people will be. Marketing analysts or marketing strategists or business analysts. That's all in a fairly similar category[00:07:00] 

Corey: Yeah.

Emily: to the work that I do in the teams that I work with do. And I would say for that type of job, a marketing degree is great, but also like Data science.

Any sort of math or research based degree can be good. And then the, some of the hard skills that it seems to me that lots of kids are graduating from college with now are things like, R, Python, SQL, any kind of coding around relational databases. And that's the kind of thing you can learn that through something like data camp or you don't have to do that in school, but if you can just show some pretty particularly for a recent college graduate, some pretty rudimentary understanding of that sort of code, it is often a really great start and you'd be applying for.

In at least, you know, in the jobs that I have seen, it tends to be like associate or junior analyst, and then you start as an associate and then you get [00:08:00] promoted to a analyst, then a senior analyst, then a lead, and then you kind of get into marketing. But every company I have found corporate roles.

There's not as much similarity in roles as you might expect. it can be kind of hard to figure out exactly what is what, but for entry level jobs, if you have those skills and then you have like all the Microsoft office tools, including Excel and like a data visualization tool, like Tableau or something

like that, you're like head and shoulders, you know, ready for a job like that.

Corey: no, I agree from what I see, you know, in, you know, the industry that I'm in is, is obviously so different, but, like, those same skills, you want to be in corporate America these days, as some sort of analyst, like, you're going to have to probably know some, some programming and you're going to want to know Excel more than just, like, you know, Some, you know,

Emily: Yeah.

Corey: you know, you [00:09:00] know, more than just the basics and the data visualization programs are, are so important because I think more and more, I think there are a bunch of people that can put those together.

But I think it's really important to be able to and we've talked about this over the years. You know, pulling data is 1 thing, but you have to be able to tell a story with that data. Right? And that's really like, where, where someone like yourself comes in, and really can tell that story to the people that are making decisions.

So they can make effective decisions for the business. Right?

Emily: Yeah, exactly. And that, that part can be taught for the most part, but I do find there is people that really do well in this particular kind of work. Their nature is analytical. When they see a problem, they're curious about it. Having that just innate curiosity and a question, actually an interview question I've heard before that I really like is.

Picture a work day where you walk out of the office that day and you're like, ah, [00:10:00] yes, like punching the sky. That was an awesome day. What happened in that day? And a true sort of analytical personality, I would say, and this is kind of me in some ways is someone gave me a challenging question and I spent all day trying to figure it out.

And I finally did.

Corey: And you got it.

Emily: Yeah, and I finally got it. You know, I had a really challenging piece of code and I figured it out or someone asked me this Complex business question and I spent all day Figuring, you know googling calling

Corey: Yeah,

Emily: Messaging, messing around with it and I finally figured it out and that is kind of a type of person.

Not all people are like that, but if you are that kind of person, you'll probably like the kind of broader analytical field.

Corey: yeah, and I think that that personality can can go to many different industries like those that particular job [00:11:00] function can be done, whether you're in. You know, industrials, you're in retail, you're like, they're you, those are skills that you can use. All over the place in the general economy, so I think that's a very. Important skill to if you have it, certainly try to develop that and you can, you can go to a lot of places and use that.

Emily: It's an interesting thing too, because like, it also requires a lot of attention to detail and a lot of ability to look at a number and say, that doesn't make sense, now I'm going to go figure out why, like the, the checking, but a lot of those skills that make you a really great analyst, I Don't always transition well to make you a really great people leader.

So it's, it's, finding that balance of like, can you get down in the weeds with the numbers and, and take a complex data set and make it into an interesting story. But are you also the kind of person who is going to really dedicate themselves to people leadership, [00:12:00] understand what your senior leadership team needs, see a bigger picture, not get too buried in the weeds because as you progress each stage, you have to kind of do a little less of one and a little more of the other.

And that, I mean, I, I think that I think there's a lot of roles that are like that, particularly in sort of corporate America, but making sure you don't, Is it the Peter principle where you get promoted one level past your capabilities?

Corey: Capabilities and yeah, you can only know.

Emily: Yeah. That, that's, I feel like corporate America is kind of ripe with those opportunities where you like keep, you'll be awesome at something, you'll keep getting promoted and then you'll just get to that next level and never get to go higher because.

You're not, you're not as well suited to it as the level from which you got promoted.

Corey: Right. Yeah, that's interesting. So kind of getting back to the, to the marketing field, can you give a range of what someone could expect coming in? And then maybe with like, 10 years of experience, [00:13:00] what your general compensation package would be, or what you could expect getting into that? And like.

And then maybe fast forward, like, okay, well, if you get, you know, 10 years and 15 years and what would you maybe where would you go from there in your career?

Emily: Yeah. Okay. So one nice thing I guess about sort of corporate roles is that the sky is not the limit, but like the, what you come in at and what you could someday possibly make if you just kept going higher and higher, that range is pretty high compared to something like being. I'm not, I don't know, maybe a police officer.

It's kind of hard to imagine. Maybe a government work is kind of a good example of like, your band might be smaller and you might have all these benefits, but, you know, the highest you could get, there's kind of a fixed cost. Time at which you could get to that highest,

Corey: yeah, there's a ceiling.

Emily: yeah, so anyway, for this role, I did a little research around to kind of see if my own experience match what was in the marketplace.

And I think [00:14:00] this is going to vary by location. If you're like in the Bay area or you went in Manhattan, it's going to be different. But I would say sort of midsize cities in the U S I think recent college graduates could be looking at anything from. maybe 50 to 70, 000 a year for a annual salary, you know, salaried work.

And then you could be looking at, as you sort of maybe as you progress through and you started to manage a team, you could be looking at something between. A hundred to $150,000 a year. And then I actually, I don't know what the top leaders of companies make, but I think as you get into more senior leadership, you could definitely be looking at something more like, you know, 150 to 250,000.

And I think as you get into sort of c-suite land. Picture those continuing up, but I don't actually know enough to [00:15:00] even guess. And I think it matters a ton on the type of company and the ownership structure. Are you family owned? Are you publicly traded? But, but then with that often comes an annual bonus.

Which, you know, a bonus like that, this also varies a ton by company, but I think it's, it's not uncommon to be getting you know, percentages like, 5, 10, 15 percent of your salary is an annual bonus. That, that varies a lot also by the type of industry you're in. Like if you're in tech, I think those are a lot higher.

Tech will also, or, or many, some companies will offer like restricted stock will offer kind of stock in various options as part of your your benefits package. Another thing. thing with that is like, I guess I found in all the people I've talked to that there's a wide range of what you could have and corporate America, I think from my perspective has a really nice balance [00:16:00] of, salary with the benefits you get.

So it's very likely that you are going to get. You're paid short term and long term disability. You're going to get parental leave. You're going to um, you're going to get 401k. So that might look like, you know, for every 6 percent of your income you put in, the company will put in four and a half percent.

And that amount that the company puts in is not 23, 000. IRS limit. So that can be, I mean, a huge, a huge benefit, especially as your salary increases you're going to have things like. Life insurance that you for sure get to have that not everybody qualifies for life insurance outside of corporate America you're going to have things like sick time and PTO 

Corey: Dependent care FSA. I remember when we, when, you know, when, when we started going down, you know, our road, we're like, what is this all about? And then when we had kids in daycare, like, oh, my God, this is awesome.

Emily: Yeah. [00:17:00] It's, you know, five, 5, 000 pre tax that you can use to pay for child care. Now, that amount is kind of laughable to anyone who has two kids in daycare, but it's not nothing, you know you'll have dental insurance, you'll have vision insurance. I'm still staggered that those are separate from health insurance, but I digress.

You might have things like an employee assistance program that will help you find a therapist really quickly, that will help you in a financial emergency, will kind of help bridge the gap. So that's kind of, That I'm trying to think of what else.

I mean, there's all kinds of benefits that other corporate America, especially like well heeled corporate America jobs will offer like gym memberships and

corporate Discounts. 

and, and stuff like that. But I think that's sort of range wise and benefits wise. And I will say one other thing, which is 

when you're looking at a salary range, make sure you also understand your healthcare, particularly, and your retirement, [00:18:00] because And bonuses, because you really have to add all that up because particularly in American, the hellscape that is American health insurance, the different packages that your employer could offer could mean if you, let's say you have a family, you're covering your family.

You could very easily be paying 10, 000 in healthcare costs a year.

Corey: Out of pocket,

Emily: Yeah. And it's like, you know, it's, pre tax most of the time, but that's still just kind of off the top of your salary. And you could also, on the other hand, be, have a fully funded health insurance plan. Some companies will offer that where you aren't paying premiums and you're paying just the barest minimum of co pays.

Same with retirement. Some companies will provide something like 3%. I mean, I have talked to some pretty nice companies that offer. A max of 2, 000 on your 401k match. So if you have a company instead that offers 8 percent on your 401k [00:19:00] match, and you're making 150, 000 a year, you, that is a huge amount of money that you just, you have to just be aware of the full number.

And all of a sudden you can find, particularly if you're making a lateral move between companies, I just, my kind of experience and from talking to people is. number, they can be like, Oh, you know, it's going to be a 30, 000 raise. Well, take out their healthcare, take out their retirement. All of a sudden, it's not really that big a raise.

So just like thinking about the, the salary is what everybody likes to talk about, but thinking about the whole piece is is so important.

Corey: Yeah. Taking into consideration your full comp package is something that they don't tell you when you're, you know, looking for your first job or when you're, you know, kind of coming out of college. And then as you get more tenured, you realize, like, some of these things really, really add up over time.

You know, the difference between 8 percent and 6 percent on his face. Oh, it's only 2 percent you haven't compounded over, you know, 15 or 20 years, [00:20:00] even 10 years. It makes such a huge difference in your, your, you know, your financial situation. And so, well, that's really interesting. I also wanted to hit on this cause I think this is a perk that not all companies offer.

I think the pandemic obviously changed this, but you, you get to work from home. You're remote are, are, are you seeing a lot of other marketing professionals being able to work from home? And if you start out, could you, are you going to be expected to. Going to make your own deal, do I have to go on 2 days a week, 3 days a week, or, or should you just be like, I'm, I'm, I'm going to work remotely.

I'm going to find a company that I can work remotely. And does the salary. Is it dictated on where that company is based, or is it just like. Geographically, you know, well, this is what it is.

Emily: Yeah. That is a fascinating discussion. That is, Is going on. I mean, right now we're in fall of 2024 when the pandemic hit so many [00:21:00] companies, including the ones I worked for transitioned overnight to remote work. And in the course of the years where you were sort of forced to, or choosing to work remote, I think many companies realize, oh, this is actually like working way better than we thought many employees realize I actually love this.

I wasn't sure I would. And so the transition back has been interesting and like, obviously highly publicized because many companies are now trying to Is it maybe because they own tons of expensive urban real estate? Possibly. But are trying to kind of force their employees back in. And I, I will say also, I see and understand the value of at least a certain amount of in person work.

I think especially for more junior employees. Although I, I will say a well functioning corporate culture can find a way to make remote work really, really successful. But what, what I, what I would say from my perspective is that, so right [00:22:00] now I work hybrid. I go into the office some days, I work from home some days.

At the moment I'm able to pick that for myself, but I make an effort to go in a certain amount a week because I really like our office. It's, it's fairly, sometimes it's more convenient for me. And I do like seeing people. I, I personally like that benefit. I I will say, I guess if I were looking someplace else again, I would either be looking for someplace where I and everyone else were hybrid also.

Or remote first, which is like everybody is remote because I do think it would be hard to start someplace where you are never in the room and other people are sometimes in the room. It takes a certain amount of effort to make sure that people that are remote are not missing. or it's not, of course you're going to miss it, but that you're still just [00:23:00] as deeply in the culture.

If you're missing the lunches, you're missing the, I mean, after work drinks, it's not as much of a thing, but any

Corey: Yeah. But you don't 

Emily: the things, 

Corey: the, the, the thing that bonds your team together. You don't 

want to be, you don't want to be like, oh, should we include. You know, Kurt on this or whatever, you know, well, yeah, that is a slippery slope. I think if, if everyone's not fully remote or in the same situation.

Corey: I think that that can create a difficult situation for sure.

Emily: and it is also just true that like, when it's time to cut, when it's time to, promote, , when the company decides it's actually too much of a pain to work remote, it's a tenuous situation to be a remote employee for a. Company that most people are in the office some amount in my experience, like it just eventually if you're a total rockstar and you're amazing you make the point to [00:24:00] travel there every so often, I think there's tons of people that are doing that successfully, but I would just be aware of the risks and possibilities 

 I'd like to talk a little bit about your work life balance, because that is also a benefit to your job. I think is something that we should talk about. So what are your hours? Like, what is your schedule? Like, typical day to day? And how much flexibility do people in your job function have typically?

Emily: Yeah. So hours I would say are like typical office hour work. So, and that's something that has sort of, you know, changed a little bit over time, but I guess I would say. Typical American office work is eight to five with an hour lunch break. Now what that, I will say at this, you know, the company I work with now, I would call, I would describe as like very, employee first, family [00:25:00] friendly.

I don't know how you, how you'd want to describe that,

but 

almost everyone I work with in my particular department is salaried, and so the expectation from salaried, I think is You'll be available all of those working hours.

Some weeks you're going to work more some weeks. You might work less It's gonna vary a lot by company and expectation and in our particular Department I we've set some kind of expectations around When one would be available for meetings, which is, you know, meetings, not starting before nine, after four or in the lunchtime period, which I really like, cause it's sort of is like, Hey, some people are starting a little later.

Some people are. Ending a little earlier or going a little later, but it's saying, you know, you need to be available for meetings in these times and kind of figure out your life. I would say in general for a corporate job, I feel like I have fantastic flexibility to kind of attend to the [00:26:00] life things that I need.

And, and I found that not, this isn't always true, but I have found that there is often a pretty clear trade between. Are you trying to drive up the corporate ranks as fast as you can work for a company that's growing at a blistering pace? The give on that is probably going to be your work life balance.

Are you willing to be a little more patient? , are you willing to maybe make a little bit less than you could in the market? Then your trade off. Should be a little more like flexibility and a little more freedom and I will say also I find That does come a little bit with having worked someplace for a long time Like if you've proven over and over again that you are going to finish your work On time, it's going to be great.

You're going to communicate clearly. Are you going to be a good teammate? Are you going to show up to [00:27:00] everything that you were supposed to show up to? Well, I think you get some more flexibility and trust, but that takes some time, you know,

Corey: Yeah, I, I think that's an important piece of it. As you, get more tenured in your career, you develop stock in your own abilities and, and, you know, your personal capital and people see that you're going to get your stuff done and your reputation. Gets better or worse sometimes, depending on who you are.

And that's really important because that does buy you so much flexibility and allows you to prioritize what you want to prioritize. And you know, part of that, going back to the previous question was, you go in, you know, one or two times a week. You're not made to do that. You do that because you want to make sure those relationships are being nurtured and you're doing all those things.

So. You don't aren't in a situation where someone might be able to say, well, we don't really see [00:28:00] Emily in the office or whatever. Whatever. Right? So that goes back to, you know, personal capital building that up. And and I think when you do have that type of. Reputation most leaders are going to just let you do your thing.

If you're taking care of business, which is that's an important insight right there 

Emily: yeah, 

yeah. Take care of business. Yeah. And that's part of it too. Like, you know, you hear this kind of. A little bit of an old school worry of like people will fool around if they're working from home. Well, people fool around a lot in the office. I'll say that having worked at offices for a long time.

And also I find there is an element of like, you don't want to jeopardize that trust and respect and capital that you've built. And so, you know, most people will, I just haven't, I have not experienced that in my time working that people are like, just, just burn in the days it, most people that I've worked with are like, they certainly seem like they're doing their work and [00:29:00] they're doing it on time.

And if anything, the company is getting the better end of that bargain more often. So I'm sure it happens, but I just, I think if you're, you have a strong corporate culture where employees generally as much as they can feel valued and respected, just not really a thing that happens, or at least not to a degree that it's worth like.

You know, forcing people into the office,

Corey: Yeah, forcing him to come to work to be physically on on the premises. I agree. I think most people want to do. They want to do good work and really what's the matter if you 6 hours of focus time and you're available for those meetings. And you're getting everything done and then some, and then, you know, you show up to the office certain times to me, it's like, what, what is the big deal?

What, what are you, what are they losing out on here?

Emily: Yeah. Yeah. Well, and that's one thing I will say that I think, I don't actually, I don't know how you transition away from this. I fully acknowledge [00:30:00] this, especially in sort of what I would describe as like knowledge work that where you don't, where it's not necessarily that I have like 10 tasks every day that I must check off.

And if I do that in three hours or six hours, who cares? It, the work that I do is much more like there's always more I could do, like, it's sort of amorphous, I guess, it's not a clear checklist of things to be completed in a certain amount of time because of that. there isn't this sense of, If you get it done in two hours, you can do whatever you want for the rest of the day.

It's very like, you need to fill all those hours, which

Corey: yeah, they're going to be like, Oh, great. Congratulations. 

Emily: Congratulations. Here's another, here's some more of, here's some more pie. And, and I understand that, but there are times where I wish that, you know, there is an element of like, Maybe I would do all this a lot faster, you're still going to be on the clock all those hours, 

Corey: Right. 

Yes. 

Yeah. Unfortunately [00:31:00] it's not like once you check, check this box off, you get, you're done for the day. That's just done how corporate America works. At all, but it's a nice dream. I like that

Emily: Yeah. Maybe someday.

Corey: So Let's walk through your typical day so Assuming that some jobs in your field you can work remotely depending on which company you work for And it's going to be pretty much banker's hours, right eight to five somewhere in that range So what what what's your day like 

Emily: my day, I will say and as you get further up, unless you work for an incredibly evolved company, I'm in a lot of meetings in person, or now they tend to be more teams, you know, on video meetings. And I, And I would say I maybe spend half or better or half or more, I don't know if you want to describe it as better half or more in meetings.

And so that can be one on ones with my team, which I think is a really important use of [00:32:00] time or just catch ups with my team, kind of every level of team that I'm in, it can be. department or larger team meetings. It can be sort of working sessions where we're all working through something together. It's not all just like sitting there statically.

If anything, it's very little sitting there statically. You're almost always listening and trying to take in the information or you're adding to the discussion, but it's a lot of meetings and it's a lot of I work when I was starting out as an analyst, it was a lot more at what I would describe as heads down desk time.

You're writing code, pulling data, organizing the data, presenting it into something interesting, sending it off to someone so that they can make a decision for it. I I do really like that work, that kind of heads down work. And so part of me, I think you need to be really thoughtful about whether you really want to move into people leadership or whether you just want more money, because if you just want more money, [00:33:00] it's.

You'll see why people leaders get paid more because it can be really, really tough work and can be incredibly rewarding work as well. But it's very different work than doing the sort of heads down analytical work versus becoming a people leader and working your way up through the chain.

It's just very different than what you do earlier on in your career. And so for me, meetings, email, and then a little bit, still a little bit remaining of the sort of analytical, you know, Excel, SQL Tableau world. In my particular team we have some sort of set, analyses that we do all the time.

But then we also just get a lot of questions from people across the company who are trying to figure out what they should do, decisions they should make. And we try to provide the data to them to make the best decision they can, which is an interesting level of. Work, because it's like you're kind of taking the data, [00:34:00] you're creating a point of view and a recommendation, and then they get to say yes or no.

You don't, we don't get to say yes or no. And so I think if you come to terms with that, it's fine, but I think it can frustrate people sometimes where it's like, well, I told you that I thought you should do this and you did something else, but it's like, that's not our role. Our role is to.

Advise is to tell, give them the best amount of information that we can. And then their role is to make the decision based on everything they know.

Corey: Sometimes best is, is not really that's a hard thing to, to quantify let them have what they're asking for for a data set and they get to determine what is best. And letting go of that can I imagine can be very difficult at times.

Emily: Yeah. And I, I will say also, like, I have been described as over the course of my life as someone who struggles with ambiguity. someone with very black and white thinking, someone with very linear [00:35:00] thinking. If anyone has ever told you that, you might be an analyst. And I will, I will also say those are not, sometimes when I hear that, I'm like, well, that sounds good.

It's not always a strength. It can be a real, it can be a real like block sometimes 

Corey: Yeah, depending on the situation.

Emily: depending on the situation, but it does lend itself well to this type of work. And then the, The goal for someone like that is like, well, you'll probably be a strong analyst, but you have to figure out how to get comfortable with change, with ambiguity, with the gray.

And, and that is, it's possible. I feel like I've gotten better at it over the years, but it's still something I have to work at all the

Corey: Yeah, sure. Sure. I think that's something that doesn't stop if you're going into leadership that that is a. Constant Learning lesson for sure.

Emily: Yeah.

Corey: So you've kind of mentioned this right now. So, like, you started in [00:36:00] marketing or wherever you start doing your marketing analyst.

Is the goal to be a chief marketing officer in all, for every person in marketing or, or are they going into, maybe a lateral move into another position, or I guess part of that's depending on the company that you're working for, but where, where would one, go

if they're at your level now,

Emily: Yeah. I mean, you know, so you get up into kind of senior leader level positions and then you can definitely, many people in this type of role could easily go into some sort of, you know, C suite level role, like corporate like a chief marketing officer. I've also heard chief brand officer. I think.

Yeah. You could, I think there's a lot of sort of typical C level roles that one could potentially be in from this level. That is an interesting one as well of like, I think it is common, especially if you're someone who is [00:37:00] really like competitive in school, that in your mind, you're sort of like, well, I'll just keep going until I, Retire.

I'll keep trying to climb as high as I can. And anytime I get a chance, I should climb. And at least that's sort of my, where my brain starts out. Like, can I get higher? Yes, I will do that. But I think as you do, as your life continues, I think it is really worth examining that because there is a point and that point is so different for everyone where that next level of Money or, prestige, respect, kind of

Corey: Responsibility.

Emily: responsibility, I would say control power is not exactly the right term because it's a corporate job, but like, decision making power, I guess, there is a point at which that next jump isn't worth it and you have to know when that is because, it, I mean, and I also think it does get [00:38:00] more intentional every jump you make.

I find that there's fewer and fewer opportunities at each level of leadership. And so you have to really push for it hard, but I think people really do need to come up for air and be like, do I actually want to be a director? Do I actually want to be a VP? Do I actually want to be, You know, a CMO and, and just make sure that you're like really clear on how that differs from where you were before and that the trade for like money and time continues to be worth it because eventually there is a point where you're like, do, do I have enough money?

Do I need more?

Corey: Well, yeah, I mean, presumably you have enough money at that time. You're not gonna have any, any, any time. You're gonna have yeah, not time,

Emily: well, and that's such, I mean, the company I'm working at, I feel very fortunate that it feels to me like you can have a pretty full life at every level of the executive team, you know, team, but it's still a lot more the responsibility to the [00:39:00] total company, the higher you get up to to be ready.

But I a thing that I think, corporate level employees really need to be thoughtful of is lifestyle inflation. That Yeah. Yeah, as you get, you know, you start out and you're pretty happy maybe with the salary you're making, and then you get the next one and you don't funnel all that into your 401k, you, you just start spending it and you 

kind 

Corey: that right into the, right 

Emily: yeah, yeah, right into the casino, right into the ponies, you pay off your gambling debt.

No, but you, you know, it's like, we've all seen it happen. It's like. You clean your own house and then you pay someone to clean your house. You do your own gardening and then actually, you know, you're traveling so much for work, you pay someone to garden you know, you either getting your kids on the bus or you're paying for a nanny to do that stuff.

And the point is, those are all fine. And you should, you know, You should like choose which one works for you, but there is, and I've, I think we've seen this in [00:40:00] people. We know that they get to a point where they're like miserable with the balance they have, but their lifestyle is so expensive that they don't have a choice.

And I, I do think the people who are most unhappy in their career, it's when they feel like they have no. Alternatives to where they are, like, they feel stuck.

Corey: The, the ability to move jobs, or, or I guess the lack of freedom in being able to move jobs can create a lot of lasting. Hardship, I think, on on individuals and families, because it, it, it really just if something happens to it, even outside your control. Okay. Well, that's problematic. But also, like, some of those corporate jobs are really.

I mean, don't sound very fun and like they can't do anything else. I saw, I saw a meme the other day. It wasn't even me. It was on like Twitter or something. It was like this guy's [00:41:00] resume. It was like. 15 years at Goldman Sachs, worked his way up, and then like another 10 years at an investment bank, and then the last three years he was a goose farmer. This is what the reservation looked like, 25 years in the financial world, and then the last, the last 10 years should be as a goose farmer.

Emily: Nailed

Corey: that was pretty cool. Yeah. Prioritize. Well, I think it's, it's important to, to think about that. And like everyone, the society that we currently live in, everyone is so like, I need to make more, more, more, more, not everyone, that's an absolute, but most people are always chasing more.

And I think. There is kind of a shift in the younger generation coming up being like, well, wait a second here. We have we're all making a bunch of money. We still can't afford houses. So what are we all sacrificing this stuff for? I would like to live my life. Without piles and piles of debt. And, you know, they're prioritizing, I think, [00:42:00] the, the work life balance that we talked about earlier.

And I think that's really smart. You really have to look at more than just money. Like, how do you want your life to look? And maybe, maybe that is, maybe the money thing is so important for you. You're willing to give up. All your years, but I can tell you as you get older, the money becomes less important.

I think probably because you have some of it now you have some stability and have had some financial success, what becomes important is, is not more work, not for everybody. You know, I think, I think people, especially if you're having kids and family time and you realize your kids are only going to be in a certain age for so long.

You're like, man, I really want to be there for those years and watch them and. And then maybe shift the gear when they get older and start focusing on that. And I mean, it's going to be different for everybody, but I, I, I do think just chasing the more dollars, there's always going to be more dollars to chase.

It's a never ending, it's a silly game to play because it's never ending. So I think that's, that's an important thing to kind of monitor as one goes through their [00:43:00] career and even starting out, just be like, all right, well, what's crafting your career to something that like, I want to like it and I want there to be a good balance of money and freedom and all that stuff.

But Yeah, really being Taking time and thinking about that. I think is really important

Emily: Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely.

Corey: So what do you think for prospects coming up in the next say five to ten years? Seems like a pretty pretty stable Position or industry that you're in can you go to many different industries? Or would you have to like kind of tweak some of your skills a little bit?

Emily: if you have those kind of hard skills that I mentioned before,

um, you can go do that at a lot of different types of companies like tech companies, retail companies. Grocery Stores, healthcare like a lot of different companies have that sort of people who are analyzing business results to understand, you know, their business, the prospects, I would say [00:44:00] are pretty good.

Good, I would say not as good as other fields. And this is also one that I'm carefully watching to see what AI might mean for this role. It's hard. It is so hard to say. I mentioned this in another interview that I've talked with so many people in so many different fields who are basically like, I don't think AI is really going to impact me.

And my general feeling is kind of like, I don't agree. Like when computers came onto the scene. wasn't immediate. It wasn't like everyone got fired and you had new people, but there were these shifts that were significant over time that all of a sudden. You don't need as many associate attorneys as you need half as many.

And so that is going to slowly work its way through the system. And it's, it is going to take some right sizing of the industry. I think tech more broadly has. Had these big you know, [00:45:00] decent sized constrictions in the last year as it right sizes after the pandemic. And so that's an area that a lot of people like me work and they're getting laid off.

And it's hard. It takes time to find a new job. I, I remember hearing once some advice that for every. 10, 000 of salary, it might take a month of job hunting. And I, in my experience, that's not a terrible estimate, like a high, what I would consider a high income corporate level job, it's going to take some time for you to 

find a similar match, especially if you have any other kind of life requirements, you know, if you're not just willing to like go for anyone who will offer you the same money.

Then yeah, it's going to take some time, but I would say I, I find that the kind of job I have that is not like something I have a license in or a crystal clear, like I'm not a doctor, I'm not an attorney, I'm not a [00:46:00] nurse. It's harder to find a job in those fields in some ways than in those jobs where like a whole chunk of the population is cut off because they don't have.

Md after their name. And, and so that's, I guess I would say, If I were really interested in a field like this, I think I would probably pursue something like data science in college so that you like are an actual data scientist. Not the sort of. Up by the bootstraps version that many, many people successfully working in the field are, but, that sort of, and I, I feel this way.

 I would have said in the past, like, I'd go for computer science and I'd become a programmer. If you have this sort of leaning, but that's another one that I think. It's not like it's going to totally go away and no one will be working in that field, but is it possible you'll need half as many starting programmers soon?

It feels, it feels possible to me. I don't know. We'll

see what happens in, in five years. But I don't know.

Corey: [00:47:00] I'm, I'm certainly not getting into like essay writing right now.

Emily: Oh my God. Yeah. I mean, copywriting there, there are these things that it's like, what is going to happen? I mean, AI is getting better all the time. There's clearly. There's clearly some things like you could have no copywriters right now, but right now there, we still all agree. There's some human touch that we either need to have or like to have not clear.

Does it matter as long as companies still have their own copywriters? But

it, 

boy. 

Corey: less probably. 

Emily: There's 

going to be

less and it's right, exactly. And it's just, it's hard to guess the future. I mean, I think it's, yeah, so I don't know. I would say if somebody is hearing everything I'm saying and it's like, that sounds like me, I would say there's probably always going to be a role in corporate America for people who are, you know, analytically driven and capable and interested in learning new tools [00:48:00] and languages and strategies that come around.

And this isn't even the whole, like the people who manage marketing budgets and manage marketing strategy in different, you know, paid marketing vehicles. I think there's plenty of work for people like that. But I think that. You have to make sure kind of always on the cutting edge of how marketing is working, but you know, the people who manage our budgets for you know, paid ads on Google, for example, that's an important part of a lot of businesses, sales, and that's work that.

Well, I, you know, that's changing all the time, but you'll probably always need people to manage that or manage whatever new version of that that comes five, 10, 20 years down the line.

Corey: right. Sure. Yeah. I, 

I think someone that's industrious that has this analytical skills that is easy to work with that can present really. Compelling [00:49:00] arguments, I think there's always going to be a market for those types of people. I think if you're further down that line, and maybe, like, maybe. You know, maybe not the best data scientists in the world, and maybe, like.

You don't like to do complicated things, you know, like I, I, I think maybe maybe take up a different maybe in a different industry or something.

Emily: Yeah, to me, the definition of something that has really good prospects are the kinds of jobs where like anyone could get in there right now. And that's like, you want to be a teacher in Florida? Congratulations. You're it. Like, 

Corey: Yeah. 

Emily: the

Corey: Congratulations. You did a

Emily: prospects are amazing for someone who wants to be a teacher in Florida.

Corey: It's like be a pharmacist up in Fort Kent, Maine.

Emily: yeah, yeah, you know,

and that,

that's not to, that's not to denigrate anyone and hope this, no one took this as denigrating teachers. I, I have such amazing respect for teachers. I just mean fields for which there is an incredible amount of demand [00:50:00] that if you just get the bare minimum, you have a job, no questions asked.

And this sort of role is not quite like that. You have to also, like you said, be. Sort of a really great person to work with and be really reliable and be really, you have to sort of have the extra level of being good at work to survive very long in this.

Corey: we have that whole third engineer for me. I mean, Jesus, do you get the license You're on, 

You're like, doesn't 

Emily: Right. Yeah. That, that's what good prospects look like. It's like, you just need to stumble through and 

Corey: Yeah. Oh, and they do stumble through. That's for sure. They stumble through. All right. Oh my goodness. So that all being said let's talk about some pros and cons.

Some of the things that you love and maybe some of the things that you didn't anticipate that you weren't going to like. And how challenging is that for you?

Emily: So I would say one thing about it, I [00:51:00] had an internship in college at a bank, I kind of was like, this is office job. Testing it out. And I 

Corey: Right. I'm going to corporate

Emily: yeah, I'm trying it out. I found it so boring. Like I was just bored to tears every day. And I hear this from a lot of high school students like, well, I don't want to sit in an office.

I would say it's a lot more than that. Once it becomes your work and you get into it, especially if you pick a good company That part of it is like, I'm not bored at work. Very, very rarely do I feel

Corey: Sipping lemonade as

Emily: Yeah, yeah, as, yeah, as our child

recently said, sipping 

around, sipping lemonade. Yeah. I will also say I really love the people that I work with.

if you have the luxury of Picking a company that kind of reflects anything about who you consider yourselves to be, you know I have found like a lot of people I genuinely enjoy spending my day with at work for, [00:52:00] you know, true friends and just actual acquaintances that I'm like, yeah, I'm happy to spend a couple of hours with.

Talking with you about a math problem. Let's do it, you know, and that's something I definitely did not anticipate out of work. I did not think that would happen working in a corporate job. 

Corey: You, don't you like play pickleball with like Dan from facilities or something?

Emily: I do, I am sort of like pickleball

on my lunch hour. If you can build fun into your adult life. I feel like adults do not have enough fun and I'm, I'm very here for it, that you've got to keep it in there. I love analytical work. I, it took me a little while to realize how, how much that is sort of in my nature.

But once I did, I was like, Oh yeah, I could just sit here and do this all day long. And that would be a fine job for me. So that, that part is like, it's surprising. And then I didn't really. you know, political science. I was really into reading and writing and talking. I didn't realize exactly how much I liked that part of work until I actually started [00:53:00] doing it for a profession.

And then the last thing I guess I would say is, I have found that I really do like managing people. I like the ability to either be the leader that you wish you had or that you actually did have and to actually do that. I like that part of work. It's not always easy.

Sometimes it can be really hard, but I find that that's an example of when you get it right, when you get to give someone good news or when you get to Tell someone hard feedback that no one else is telling them, but they need to hear and you get to tell them in a respectful, you know, kind way. I feel really great about that part of my job, and I wouldn't necessarily have expected that you know, the power and control.

I knew I would like that. No, I'm just kidding. But but like, you know, you, you don't always think about that element of being a leader. And I have liked that. On the other side, things that I, that are [00:54:00] tough about it, that I didn't expect at all, or I didn't anticipate how challenging it would be. These two things have become really crystal clear to me.

The more I've talked to people and the more I've done this podcast, the first one is in this sort of general broad field of corporate salaried role, there is, I would say, almost zero opportunity to have any kind of unusual schedule. yeah, does it exist somewhere in the world that manager and marketing could be part time?

Maybe, but you probably aren't getting benefits at all, maybe, or very low benefits. And you're probably doing a full time person's work.

And I 

understand, Yeah, I totally understand why companies do this. It's not set up for it. It's also really expensive. Like if you have two people working two and a half days a week and they're both getting benefits, that's more than one person's salary and one person's benefit.

I do [00:55:00] understand why. But when I think about these other sorts of career paths, like. Being a doctor, being a lawyer, being a nurse, or even a, a, a, definitely a teacher a professor, being a Merchant Mariner, you have these like possible options of you might work you might get the summer off because you're a teacher and not, you know, many teachers have to work in the summer, but it's still a possibility that one day you might get the summer off.

You might be able to work something like three days on, four days off, and those are longer Days, but you have these like possibilities of hours that you can work and days that you can work, or you might be able to drop down and go per diem and work the days

that you want. If you work salary in corporate America, you are working eight ish to five ish Monday through Friday all the time.

sometimes when I say that I feel a [00:56:00] little childish about that, but It doesn't really reflect how our lives have these ebbs and flows and changes and, and times when you can work more and times that you can work less. And, and truthfully, like I was so lucky that I was able to take a long leave from work and that you were, you know, your job allowed that to work out for us.

But when we had children, but it was really hard going back to work. Full time right away when I came back from leave and I, at the time I felt a lot of envy for people who could say the, you know what, I'm actually, I'm going to be part time. For the couple of years until they go to school, or I'm going to take some time off and go back when they go to school, because it's not impossible to do that.

But I would say it is way harder to off ramp and on ramp in that kind of job than in something like, I don't know why I keep going to nursing. It's just the clearest one being a doctor. I think that's true too, that if you [00:57:00] like keep up your continuing ed or a therapist, something like that, if you like keep up your continuing ed.

And if you kind of were good at your job before, I know it's not a totally easy, everyone can do this. But it's just that element of like, and I see this kind of post on working moms, Instagram, which I'm a heavy follower on Instagram, where they're like, well, why don't you go part time? It's like, that doesn't exist here.

It's not this for this type of work, you're, if you're out, you're out and it's hard to get back in. 

Corey: well, and the opportunity costs, like, you've certainly eaten, like, 5 or 6 years of, like, you're going to start not as a senior manager, but you're going to start as, like, an analyst again.

Emily: Yeah, and I will say that goes to my other unexpected thing, which is that I didn't anticipate how much having a kind of portable title or certification how nice that could be there is this sort of clear path. If you pursue. [00:58:00] a known certification or license of some kind.

If you're a actuary or you're a CPA or you're a,

 pilot, or even if you're like, I am a software engineer, I know these languages, you know, or teacher, firefighter, policeman, those sorts of things where you're like, I am this. And 99 percent of people are not.

Corey: It's easy to compartmentalize a licensure because you've passed this thing or, you know, this thing and people just, it's a standardized way of saying I can do the work. You're asking me to do. Whereas. There is so many people in marketing that have, like, you could have an absolute rock star and then you can have someone that just like. Let's market some more. We're going to market the market.

Emily: Yeah. And I, I mean, there's some benefits to that too. Like I've definitely seen some people who are pretty bad at work that just keep [00:59:00] on making those moves. Hop in every two years. Hop, hop, hop, hop, hop. And I never stay quite long enough for people to realize that they're. Not great in many ways. So it gives you, it also gives you some flexibility to not be like, I, I also understand the flip side of that, like all the time and investment you put into becoming an MD.

And then you don't like it, you know, it's, it, what I, the way I have gone has given me some flexibility, but I think with that flexibility comes a little less security, , like when, from what I've seen from coworkers applying, it's like, you're really more doing like, do you like me?

am I able to talk a good game in an interview? Am I able to kind of think on my feet on the fly? That's a lot more of what will kind of, promise success in this sort of a role than the clear, like I have this bulleted list of items on my resume. And I don't know that I necessarily.

would do [01:00:00] anything differently than that. But there just are this moment, these moments where I'm like, huh, I kind of missed when I talk to people who are in a career like that, as long as that career suits them pretty well, that particular component of it, I sort of miss that sometimes in my career,

Corey: Yeah. Well, all that said, if you could start over today, would you still go into this or would you do something different? And if you would do something different, what would you do?

Emily: I don't know that I would, and so many people I've talked to have said the same thing because it's hard to imagine the alternative. I

mean, being, I actually do think I would have loved getting a PhD in political science and working in a think tank, but I really do think I was correct that I would have hated living in Washington, DC.

And that was kind of where those jobs were available until pretty recently. And And in many ways I think it. It comes with a lot of the same things that I'm, you [01:01:00] know, doing today. Like it's a similar type of work and also maybe has some of the similar types of limitations to it that I, I wouldn't love.

 You know, certainly like dream jobs, like if I could be a successful. Author. Like, I, I think I could love that, but the truth is I wouldn't love the details of that work. I wouldn't love the, some, some of them, you know? So in many ways I have found that I have somehow found myself in probably just about the closest match of my own strengths and weaknesses and the possibilities of modern work, you know?

So no, I don't think so. I mean, I really gave going to law school some thought, but I actually, I don't, I've now talked to enough attorneys. I don't think I would like being an attorney, so I think I would have loved law school, truthfully. 

Corey: You're exceptionally good at being a student.

Emily: I love having, having witnessed

and I will, I [01:02:00] will say also, this is maybe for any listeners here who are like, I too am good at school, and I like love, 

and I'm not taught, I'm not, I'm not saying smart, I'm saying good at school, like, are you very structured? Some might say rigid are you, are you good at like meeting expectations put in front of you? If you are, you might find the transition to work life somewhat what's the word? You might find yourself a little unmoored where there's not this like clear, you do this to 

get this, you do this to get that, because that's not what, especially it's not what work life is like if you don't pursue, um, yeah, license.

Yeah. If you go to medical school, it probably is a little bit clearer, but eventually you're going to get a point to your career where it's like, Like, if you do this, you might get this. If you

do this, you might get that, 

or you might not, or you might get something else. And I felt a little bit at [01:03:00] drift.

Let me see how many nautical phrases I can put in here. I felt a little bit at times like, well, it was crystal clear to me what I needed to do to get to in this AP class or into this. seminar to this school or into this grade. And it just gets a lot more murky as you, which, as I mentioned, I'm not a big fan of ambiguity.

So that's just a lifelong struggle that I'm going to have to deal with. Unfortunately for me and others who live with me or married to me. Yeah.

Corey: Oh, that, that's one of the things I love about you, honey. So I, I love this question for, for many reasons, but knowing that our families are going to listen to this as well as this is really interesting, but what do you hope to be doing more of in the next five to 10 years? And what do you hope to be doing less of?

Emily: Well you know, we have young children together and I feel like we're sort of entering a stage of life where [01:04:00] I don't want to miss it. I don't want to miss any of it. You know, I, I want to be there and, and see every stage and just enjoy the life that we have, which I, you know, feel so grateful for.

And so I don't even know if I'd say I want to be doing more of, but I want to continue prioritizing that. But I also will say, I feel also that I'm at this kind of interesting stage in my own career where I feel like, there's opportunity ahead. And I also feel like I've sort of gained enough experience and insight that I feel ready for more challenges and that I could take those on and not have it sort of.

Eat away too much at the, the personal life that I, you know, not even in time, but just mentally, I feel ready for a new, you know, next challenge, a new challenge, the next step up. So I'm, I'm looking forward to kind of having more, you know, even more of a seat at the [01:05:00] table, you know, more leadership, potential more leadership experience, but I hope I guess a little bit to be, you know, that's part of the reason I'm sort of getting ready to wrap up the podcast.

I've enjoyed this experience so much and I've learned so much out of it, but I'm ready to sort of narrow the fields a little bit. Like we're work, we're family, we're, we're going ahead with those fields. And some of the, extracurriculars, while they have been so, so fun and I've gotten so much out of some of them, I, I sort of find myself feeling a little bit like these are the.

The paths right now and and I want to, I don't want to distract from the path in any meaningful way. So I, I think those 2, I hope to see some I hope to see some kind of growth and continued advancement at work and I hope that our, you know, in five to 10 years, our kids will look back and be like, mom was around too much.

I wish she was at less. [01:06:00] No, no, 

Corey: When's mom shipping out? 

Emily: Is mom done yet? But you know, that element of like, I, I feel so lucky that my parents were always there. They, my parents both worked full time all the time that I was growing up and they were just relentlessly there. No, I'm good. I mean, truly like they were really present at everything all the time.

And I'm sure that had costs to them professionally, probably all sorts of things. But they were like, Definitely there at all the things they really did not miss it. And I. I, I want that to be my next five or 10 years.

Corey: Yeah, that's awesome. Love that. You mentioned kind of wrapping the podcast up. You've done well over 60 

Corey: podcasts now, right? So what surprised you about the whole process of doing the podcast? 

Emily: This did surprise me, I guess. I would say I [01:07:00] anticipated having a few jobs that I was like, I cannot fill a half an hour about this. And every single person I talked to had something that, you Truly shocked me in a, and mostly positive. I don't mean like you know, salacious or anything, but I, something that really, really, I found fascinating and interesting.

I will say I realized I, I am a very curious person. Like I, the flip side of that could be nosy, but I prefer curious. Curious. Like I love every time I started talking to someone, I'm like, tell me more. I need to hear more about this job. And even some of the jobs are jobs that on paper, you might be like.

I don't know. That doesn't sound that interesting, but it was, there was always something interesting about why the person made the choice to have those jobs. So the example I've given when I've talked to you about it is that I talked to someone who is a manual insurance rater and coder, like they're literally writing up the policies for insurance.

And I'll be honest. There's, there's Part of me in [01:08:00] my mind that I thought, well, that sounds a little dry, you know, but one thing came up, which was like, what surprised you about her work? And she said, I see risk everywhere, everywhere I go. I see

risk. 

Yeah. And I, I mean, not only was she a really fascinating person to talk with, but that is a part about that job. I never would have expected, but it is huge. So important to know if you go to work in insurance and also let's just say you're maybe someone who's already prone to kind of seeing, you know, The possible risks and things that might not be the job for you because everything you ever see, you're going to see the fire risk, the property damage, the liability, the worst case, you know?

And, so that was interesting. The other piece I would say is so about half the people I, I talked with were strangers, maybe more than that. So that was really fun to just get this chance to like, feel like I developed some real chit [01:09:00] chatting ability to kind of talk with anyone. But I, I have gotten to like reconnect with a lot of people I am so thankful that I got to talk with some of our family members, with you with close friends that if someone had asked me what they did for work, I would have, could have given a sentence or two about it, but I had no idea and it's actually brought up some conversations that never made it to a podcast, but that I just had these long conversations.

in depth conversations about someone's work life that I just never, ever, ever would have gotten that level of detail and understanding about their life that I did by interviewing them. And I'm so grateful for that because I just, I really. Friendships that were people I cared about deeply, but I didn't talk to enough.

And I was like, I, now I like really know what you do every single day. So yeah, that, I guess that was probably one thing that surprised, those were things that surprised me about [01:10:00] it.

Corey: Yeah, someone's career and your job just takes up so much time. And often when you meet someone, like, what do you do? The 1st thing they say, they say, it's not, it's not going to be like, well, I'm a father and uh,

Emily: Mm hmm.

Corey: when someone says, what do you do? They almost always are going to say what they do for profession.

Emily: Yeah.

Corey: And as a friend, like, I know mostly the titles that my friends have for jobs, but like, if you ask me their day to day, just like, you know, my sister, I'm an engineer and my sister said she told someone she was. Yeah. She's like, I think my brother's like the captain or something. Right. You 

know, I worked in the water, but, like.

And that's my sister, you know what I mean? But like, so often we, we don't understand the day to day workflow and schedule and like all the, the details of, you know, our friends and families, what they do on the day in and day out. So, I think this podcast certainly enabled you to, to kind of see. A glimpse of what people do.

And I think [01:11:00] also going back to the person that you talked to that worked in insurance. I think that speaks to the incredible value of being having your personality. And we've talked about knowledge, skills and abilities and having that align with. With your personality and like being really well matched for your job.

I think talking to someone about insurance could be mind numbing for someone who doesn't isn't into insurance, right? If you talk to someone about insurance that really knows what's going on and that can make it fascinating insurance and finance are. Incredibly satisfying to talk about. So really part of that is like finding, talking to people that are like really passionate about, you know, impassioned, but like really, really good at what they do and really to, to get the full experience.

I think, you want to talk to someone that is like really good at the job that they do.

Emily: I had the [01:12:00] benefit of being raised by someone who really was passionate about their job. My dad would often say, if you love your job, you'll never work a day in your life. And I will say, I sort of don't feel like that's true for me. Everything I've ever done is sort of felt like work, but I also, the other side of that, that I heard this recently, if you can't get out of it, get into it.

Right. And it's like, yeah, almost everyone is going to have to work most of their adult life. That's just life. And so I find probably the people I enjoyed speaking with the most although I, I, I love to, I love talking with people at all their different stages, but people that are kind of in the stage where, and where there's a lot of working life left and you're also well into your career, like mid.

Mid career. You just got to get into it. You know, if maybe you didn't think when you were 18 That you were gonna spend your working life doing this But like, it's a long life if you just don't [01:13:00] do your best and try to understand it. So I've noticed since doing this podcast, whenever I mentioned it to someone and I asked them some detailed question about their job, they will really like get down and you can tell they're excited about it and they're excited to talk about it because if you're going to spend all this time doing it, you might as well get kind of excited about it, become an expert in it.

Work hard at it, find the pieces about it that bring you joy and kind of light you up. it's really fun to hear that element of people that you're talking to your friend or you've never talked about work and they're like, yeah, so let me tell you about grant writing. And you're like, what 

Corey: Yeah. 

Emily: is happening? But it, it's really like It's so cool to see people that you thought you knew well, and to see this whole other side of them. This came out during the pandemic when people would be like, I finally met my, my husband's work personality or my wife's work personality, because

you'd hear them on zoom.

And it was like a stranger essentially. And it's like. it's such a big [01:14:00] part of our life you might as well make the most of it that you can.

Corey: Absolutely. I love that. So thinking about. All the past podcasts and your guests that you've, you spoke with, I like to hear some of the nuggets of information and advice that you think are maybe I don't want to say the most important, but like maybe for our little girls or some other people that are going to be listening to this in the future, if you could distill down some of the best professional advice That you've heard.

I'd like to hear that.

Emily: a lot of the original reason I started doing this was that. I wanted someday to be able to like offer advice, if anyone ever asked me you know, to our, our kids about what they maybe should think about doing for work. Which will they ever ask me? I don't know. That's why I started doing a podcast [01:15:00] because Maybe they'll listen to it someday.

But I will say in that regard, in some ways, I'm more confused than ever. Like I talked to so many people and there really wasn't anything that I came out of it and I was like, yeah, this is it. There's no, you know, it's in demand. It pays. It's going to likely be in demand for a long time as technology changes.

It's a, good work life balance. It's also respected. It's, there's all these things I was kind of looking for this silver bullet career. And I did not find it. that was one element that I, still feel a little under prepared to advise someone on work, but I think this is what I did learn.

The people who I, that I spoke to who were the happiest in their full life, not just work, the full life that work had created for them were the people who knew themselves really well. That includes sort of everything. It's not just the work [01:16:00] task. That is really important. The actual work that you're doing.

It's how much money you personally need as a person. there's plenty of people I know who don't make a ton of money, but they don't, they don't care about that. They like the work they're doing and that's fine. But be really honest with yourself about that. How much stability you want, how much flexibility you want, how much kind of Prestige recognition matters to you.

How much your work changing as you progress in your career matters, or if it doesn't matter how much you're willing to kind of dedicate to get. To the field, the ability, you know, the ease and ability to get jobs across the field, all those things, the people that really understand who they are, regardless of social expectations, regardless of kind of any sort of external imagination of what they should be doing.

Those people are really happy. And I met people that [01:17:00] were. all across different fields doing that. It was not one thing individually, but, I think if I could give you any advice, it's that it's like really figure out what makes you happy and what makes you miserable and make sure that you're, when you're in that job, that it's the best possible fit that you can find.

I think the other thing I would say in that vein is, Really try hard to find some people doing the work that you want to do before you get too deep into it because the further you go in any path, the harder it's going to be to get off it. It's never impossible.

It's never too late. Blah, Blah, Blah, 

But like, you know what? It is. Eventually it's hard to go back to school in your fifties. 

Corey: Yeah, It is because, everything else in your life is dynamic as well. It's, I mean, very few people are like, you're never too old, except now you've got kids and a mortgage. And so, like, you can't give that [01:18:00] up. You know what I mean? You, you get more, you get more embedded in your lifestyle and going back to what we're talking about earlier.

I think that's what a lot of people. Contract themselves with the lifestyle, you know, you start driving around, you know, very expensive vehicles and getting houses that probably you don't necessarily. Need, but want, and all these other personal decisions, but all of a sudden you are in a position where you can't make those choices.

You are in there. You're in it 

Emily: yeah, yeah, it does get harder and so yeah, Oh, I remembered something actually that I learned, which is, the job that you have will impact your personality.

And so be sort of aware of which way it will impact it and be ready for that. an example, I would say I have talked to people who are like, I thought I was introverted, but it was [01:19:00] actually just that I had a job in which I was incredibly introverted. And when I changed that job, I realized, oh, I'm actually extroverted. I just didn't have the energy for it before. Or, an example would be, and I think this is a classic one with police officers, like working on third shift.

If you are kind of constantly seeing people at their worst. you you might find that you come to constantly expect the worst out of people and, true on the other side as well. If you're constantly seeing people at their best and people have a lot of respect for the work that you do and people are so thankful for you know, your contributions to society that might sort of raise you up Who are you interacting with every day? What's the mindset of those people that you're interacting with every day? What kind of news are you going to deliver a lot in your work? What kind of news are you going to receive a lot in your work and just know that that is going [01:20:00] to change you Almost no one is just like shutting it off completely and going on their merry way, I think that's a component of work that I, I learned that I didn't necessarily anticipate.

Corey: Yeah. Ask yourself how many people you've made cry today.

Emily: Usually for me, the answer is zero or if they're doing it, they're doing it behind closed doors.

Corey: Weeping uncontrollably. Quietly

Emily: Just quietly at their desk. Very close to mine because it's an open office.

Corey: That'd be amazing.

Emily: No. I never make anyone cry, I don't think, besides tears of joy, obviously,

and my mad analytical skills.

Corey: Yeah. Is that water coming outta your eyes? Our daughter says 

Emily: Yes.

Corey: water.

Emily: water. 

Corey: All right. So I had 1 last question. We can talk all you want. There's plenty of other questions, but 1 last question. Speaking to our 2 [01:21:00] little girls as they get older. What do you want to tell them about your podcast about your career about what you want for them?

Let's have it,

Emily: Oh man. This is a lot. Okay. You know, I, I would go back to that, like knowing yourself. Outside of any expectations from anyone else outside of me or your dad or your sister or your family, like just truly spend as much time as you can observing the things that bring you real joy. And the things that make you really miserable and try to differentiate between being mildly uncomfortable and miserable as much as you can.

Cause it is, you know, you don't want to over correct on that. It's important to keep kind of challenging yourself. But, the sooner you can know yourself and pursue a path that is the best possible fit. For the individual person that you are, the happier that you're going to be. I also think I mean, I'm going to steal yours.

Cause I [01:22:00] think it's really true. Like. If you decide to pick a partner, you know, pick well, because the right partner, which I feel like so lucky that I have, will raise you up and push you forward and give you kind of the ability to the person that you are and So And that includes being the right partner too, like working on yourself and understanding who you are and being kind and thoughtful and caring and all those things.

But if you pick a partner that's not right for you, it's kind of a lifelong bulldozer slowly pushing you away from happiness and joy and finding those things. It's not impossible. There's, you can look all through the news and find plenty of, well, I don't know if those people are happy. That's hard to say.

I think it's very

hard to, to, yeah, I think it's very hard to live a truly joyful life with a fundamentally mismatched, 

Corey: [01:23:00] Yeah. 

Emily: So that's, that's one. Someone that you really just find joy. in being around, before you hit all the hard stuff. Cause there's plenty of, hard stuff that will come your way.

And so make sure that it's someone you really just like spending time with. This is really hard.

I think it's important to be able to support yourself and that's, you know, unfortunately maybe by the time our daughters are adults, this won't be true, but I think it's especially important for women that you know, I, I realized I paired that immediately after my romantic spiel about finding the right partner, but like, you just don't know where life is going to take you.

And I think there is an element and I, I think. This element often increases as you get older and have more responsibilities in your life where having security and stability financially you [01:24:00] might not understand how important it can be and how much joy it can bring you when you're 22 or 23. But then someday you might hopefully you will be 40 and you will, maybe you'll have a family, or maybe it'll just be you, or maybe it'll be you and, and a partner and, being able to have the freedom that That financial stability gives you is a really big deal.

And I think people can get in pretty tough situations if they just think like I'll figure it out later down the line. And, and I think it can also lead to kind of. Power imbalances that are just aren't great for anyone, not to say, you know, no one should take time off at different times in their career, but I would just say to do it very thoughtfully and judiciously.

Corey: Yeah.

Emily: This is a special shout out to like your late thirties, early forties, but at this stage of my life, I'm finding [01:25:00] that. There's a couple of things that like, as you go into adulthood tend to happen, you have to fight against them. One is fun. I mentioned like, find some fun, plan, use all your PTO, like don't leave a minute of it on the table.

Like plan and find some things that are not like, Restful fun is cool. Read books,

you know, exercise, like, yeah, do all that stuff. But like, fun, fun. find a sport you like. this year we went water skiing a few times. It's find something that you're like screaming with fun, fun, whatever that is.

And again, this is a good know yourself, better example. Cause for some people that's a concert. I don't really like concerts. It's taken me a long time to figure that out, but maybe someday, maybe someday I will. I don't know. But the point is find something that really is, is truly fun. I would also say, Looking for ways to continue to push yourself out of your [01:26:00] comfort zone

can get really easy to get into this comfortable path and not push yourself out.

And is that like running a race? Is that learning a new thing? Is that joining a, Nonprofit board, I don't know what it is. Is it taking a new assignment? Like whatever it is, don't allow yourself to get too comfortable all the time. I'll spare my discussion of civic duty, but obviously I hope our children as adults are voting and contributing to their society.

I'll spend the next 10 years slowly talking to them about all that stuff, but so fun. Pushing yourself outside of your comfort zone. And then the last element of that is learning to let go of things that are not actually you. So the best example I can think of after this year and a half is that I realized that at least at this stage of my life, I don't like gardening and I always felt like I should.

And I just don't. And after doing this for like a year, I [01:27:00] was kind of feeling. Overwhelmed and like I couldn't figure it out and I, I didn't know what to drop I come out and I look at this garden and it's filled with weeds and I had you take it out and turn it back into lawn and I have every time I go out and I looked at this patch of lawn, I just have a big smile on my face.

Corey: love that.

Emily: Because for, for years and years, I was like, I should like this, I should find joy in, turning the soil and, and I, I guess I do, but like, I just don't have time and I don't want to, and I realized how, how When you get rid of something and all you feel is relief,

Corey: Yeah, that's a clear sign that you shouldn't be doing it

Emily: it's a clear sign. And I really dragged myself along on that for like, 10 years plus 

Corey: Yeah, you'd garden like, semi heavy. I feel like you, I mean, when we 1st moved to this house. I mean, [01:28:00] just to describe it, it's like this, like, beautiful, like, fenced in garden, and we rototilled it, and I, you know, painted all the posts to look nice, put new fencing on it for Mother's Day a few years ago, and it was just something that, like, when the girls were really young, they'd be in there with their diapers, messing around with you, and finding, you know, critters and snakes, whatever, and it was cool, but as you get older, it's like, there's only so much time in a day.

Do you want to fill your minutes with gardening, or do you want to be filling your minutes with, whatever else, you know, pick your activity. And I think it's really important to clear your life of those things that You don't derive immense joy from, especially like when you're talking about hobbies in particular, if you have like 10 hobbies, you don't like all your hobbies the same way I had to do this.

you know, I'm an, I'm an engineer. I like to work on things, but like, I don't, I'll tell you what I don't like working on is my dirt bikes. I want to ride my dirt bikes. I don't want to be fixed, fixing their bikes. I don't want to be, you know, Some people like tying flies. [01:29:00] Oh, well, do you want me tying flies?

You want me fishing, you know, like you have to, you know, you have to pick and choose because there's only so much free time that a person has. So I think it is important to really focus in on those things that really just give you give you those things that you, that really feed you.

Emily: totally. And it's like, I realize I do love the element of gardening. That's like nice landscaping, but that's, you plant it once every five years and you like weed it very occasionally.

Corey: Yeah. 

Emily: And. 

Corey: mulch. Mulch is awesome.

Emily: yeah, it's like, and so it's not, I don't hate gar I don't want anyone to walk away with this being like, Emily said she hates gardening.

I don't feel that way. It's like, 

when I 

had, 

Corey: garden, by the 

Emily: yeah, right, yes, it was a vegetable garden. When I had free time. I just found myself, I was like, okay, I have a free afternoon. I want to nurture my friendships. Friendships are so important. I want to exercise. I want to read. I want to sew. I want to go do something fun.

[01:30:00] And, and never was I like, I want to weed this garden. And that, and I know people who, that is the first thing. That's the one thing they wish they could do. And.

Corey: yeah, my mom loves 

that. So does your mom. Your mom is just like 

Emily: yeah. 

Corey: at weeding a garden.

Emily: And so again, it, it all comes back to like knowing yourself and finding, and I will say, I think there's certain personalities for whom it's a little harder to wade through the picture of who you think you're supposed to be.

And I, I am sort of one of those people where I'm like, how do I peel back the onion? of what I think I am, what I think I should be to what I actually am. And this year through doing this process and having this kind of rapid fire meeting, totally new people I'd never met, before from all different backgrounds and all different you know, parts of the country and experiences.

I got this chance to be like, [01:31:00] I'm not that. I am that. I am not that. I am that. And it, it did help me to get a better sense of what I really like and what I really, who I really am. I think in some ways I got a little bit of a better sense for that. And there was an element of, of it when I first started that I was like, it possible that I'm going to hear of a job and be like, I have to quit and start all over and do this.

And I guess it was a relief that. that didn't happen. There were a few that were pretty close where I was like, wow, in another life, I think that could have been great for me, but there was nothing Maria who worked at the world bank. Oh man. And in another life, I think I would have really loved and I wish, I mean, she just had such an impressive career too, but, but the truth is, you know.

I don't think it would have kind of brought me the same level of joy and fulfillment that it brought her. And so in some ways I like ended up in [01:32:00] the right spot, but yeah, 

Corey: Well, that brings me to 1 last question, I guess. Not everyone can start a podcast. Not everyone's going to start a podcast to kind of learn those things. So how do you, how would one go about finding what skills, what things bring them joy? How would you craft if you're a 17 year old, 16, 17 year old, even 18 year old, whatever.

How would you say, okay, well, these are the things that This is the short list of things that I want to do for a career. And like, how, how, how would you go about that? How would you, design the process of picking a career that is fulfilling and gives you a lifestyle that gives you the time and money to which you can live your life?

Emily: that's such an interesting one. I very, very few people I have talked with where like, I knew I wanted to do this in high school and I'm doing it now. I think of the 60 plus [01:33:00] people I've talked with, maybe a handful of people said that that's a pretty uncommon, path I've now realized.

So I guess I would say don't really expect that you'll be able to figure it out. And one element too is almost all jobs have a pretty wide range of things you could do someday. if you want to be a doctor, there's a lot of ways you could take that path.

And there's a lot of ways in your career you could take it too. So that's a component of it. It's you can sort of pick a broad swath and just know that it's possible. But I would say, I mean, the original idea we had behind this podcast was before it was a podcast was when our kids are 16, 17, we're going to talk to all the adults we know and have like a conversation.

you're spending every Saturday afternoon going over and they're going to tell you all these questions, you know, the, the ins and outs, the ups and downs, the money, the benefits, what it takes to get there. I [01:34:00] still think that's a great idea. I just think it would be really hard to get a 16 or 17 year old group to do it.

But if our group of friends said, We're getting all the 16 year olds together and they're doing a round robin, I would be thrilled to have that conversation for an hour of like, here's my tax return. Here's my, you know, here's what my actual working day looks like. Here's how I got here. Here's the things I hate about it.

Here's the things I love about it. I think that would be. Incredibly valuable, the real nuts and bolts of it. But if I were a teenager or college student, I think I would do everything I could to just if I had any inkling of something I wanted to try to find people to connect with that did that actual work and talk with them.

 there's this sort of road, it's like your parents, friends, okay. But there's, there's alumni connections. there's you know, guidance counselors, you know, I think if a, teenager [01:35:00] really went. to a guidance counselor and was like, I think I want to be a doctor. Can you help me?

You know, I think a public high school guidance counselor could like help you find someone to talk with. before. The internet revolution, but you know, back in the old days, it like really benefited people who came from professional class families are.

But today with podcasts and with Tik TOK all these things. this is another thing I found that of every career path, there was like an influencer who was in that career. you know, follow all the influencers in that, space that you can find, read kind of books about that experience.

Just try to really try to really understand what it actually means to be in that field, especially anyone that is going to take a huge commitment just to get into it. Like. Law, being a CPA, being a doctor, anything that takes a long time before you actually get working in the field, really, [01:36:00] really try to get the on the ground knowledge of it as best you can first.

And then I would say, I actually did this when I was, At my first job out of college that I said, I kind of like just fell into in some ways after applying to tons of jobs that I didn't get, I started keeping a note of like things I like, things I don't like. And I took a bunch of career apt, I like went to the library and borrowed, I don't know if you remember this, but I borrowed a bunch of career aptitude books and I just worked through them one by one and these things started to pop out that I was like.

I don't really want to work with the public. I don't really want to negotiate contracts. I mean, that's something, like, I don't want to do that as a core part of my job. I like, complex questions. I like analytical work, like these things will kind of, these themes will pop up and then start to look for, for jobs that fit That field I will say being an entrepreneur, it's been interesting [01:37:00] talking to people in those fields that in America, the way it is at this moment is really, really tough because unless you're really successful, it doesn't come with much security or stability. So you're kind of relying on a, on a partner.

To provide that often, which can be tough unless you're so successful, you know, of course, there's entrepreneurs out there who can easily afford all those benefits and that's great. But thinking about some of those levels of like, what level of risk are you comfortable with? What level of stability can you rely on a partner?

Would you be willing to give as a partner on the other side? I think the kind of things that are available to everyone are this truly the like, The podcast, the, the books, the social media, I was shocked to find this, that it was like, you want to be a radiologic technologist, there's a Tik TOK for that.

 You want to work in big law. you want to be a neurosurgeon. There's tons

of influencers who are like. Constantly talking [01:38:00] about the pros and the cons and the reality of that job. And if you really pay attention to that, you're going to get a sense of what it's, what it's like.

Corey: And then on the other end, that stuff also comes with, you know, unfortunately, you can't hope your way into being a neurologist or a, you know, an investment bank, or you have to put in the work. And I think when you're 16 or 17, you're not realizing that. But what you should realize is that your grades that you're getting in high school.

Already matter those already, because that's going to impact what schools you get into. That's going to impact so much of your life is tied to the schools that you go to later. And you don't understand that maybe not everyone understands that in high school. And so the colleges are only looking at, which, you know, the only report cards that they have in your life, like, when you're an adult, they can look at your resume and your credit score.

Well, when you're in high school, the only thing that they have to go by is your 9th, 10th, 11th. And if you're lucky, maybe. Your 12th grade spring or [01:39:00] fall semester. So, by then, if you messed up your freshman year, when you're what, 14 or 15 years old, and you didn't really have. Everything together, okay, well, that's going to impact what school you get into.

Period period, you're not going to get into Ivy League if you messed up your freshman year, you're not going to do it. I don't care how good your are unless your parents are writing very huge checks to get you in these days and probably take, you know. Eight figures or something like that to get you an Ivy League if 

your grades aren't good.

That's all to say is like, if you want one of those professions, you, you really need to be somewhat focused early on and already kind of having this thing in your head, like, okay, I want to maybe go on, go on and do this because if you're, if you're 18 and you think you're going to go and be a doctor, if you hadn't planned for that, you're kind of behind the eight ball already. Not that there's not time you can always go back, but, you know, if you want to be a lawyer, you should have already known you wanted to be a lawyer. So start I [01:40:00] guess the, the moral of this is what I'm saying is you should be preparing for that. Don't start when you're fixing to graduate high school. You should be this is a process that starts.

You know, when when people are young, you start kind of figuring that out bit by bit, you know.

Emily: Yeah. That actually reminds me of one more thing I was going to say that I like learned more broadly, which is one thing I did want to sort of figure out, try to figure out in this podcast was I definitely going into school felt this real pressure to like succeed at every level from.

K to 12. Get into the best school. Kill it at the best school. felt a lot of if you miss this chance, these doors will be closed forever. And I wanted to understand how true that was from talking to people. Like, does it really matter that you went? Because I, I did find the other side, which was yeah, it helps to have a, really nice, [01:41:00] on your resume, but it doesn't pave the path with gold for you either.

And so I, I did wonder, you know, on the other side, were there, were there any jobs and careers where people were like, Yeah, you can never do this if you mess up at this stage or that stage. And I think what I ultimately determined was if you kind of follow the, the clear path of you work super hard From literally, I would say late elementary school, but certainly middle school, absolutely high school.

You take every test, you do every extracurricular, you kill it on the SATs, you do it every AP class. you do all the stuff, you get into the college, you make the best out of that experience. that's hard. But it's the easy path to a lot of things like on campus recruiting is going to come, and if you would like to work at McKinsey or Google or Facebook or whatever, that's the [01:42:00] easiest way to get there is that is to like not miss a beat.

Follow every exact rule of do all the things all the time as best as you can. That's how you get to be you know, if you want to be a partner at a big four accounting firm, if you want to be an executive at Google, if you want to run for Senate, all those things, it's a very taxing way, but it's the clearest, cleanest way to success.

But, I talked to so many people who did that and were sort of like middle management someplace having a nice career, which is a fine outcome to life. But there's also a lot of people who worked a lot less hard and ended up at the exact same spot as you. So that's one thing in some ways doing all those things and getting to the most selective school, it sort of pushes you into this, like.

Your ceiling is higher, your floor is higher, but there's a lot of overlap from [01:43:00] people who are just really scrappy, really gritty and, and ended up, higher or better than you. And the example, one example I thought of was Saranya, the attorney I spoke with who was a partner at a top 50 law firm.

I mean, super, super smart, extremely hardworking.

Corey: that one. Yeah.

Emily: But she went to She makes everyone feel I was like, oh my god,

Corey: I need to get another job.

Emily: also I would do one more shout out shelves of color. Her book, children's Instagram is just absolutely amazing. You're like how I don't understand, but she went to law school at night at a, I guess you might describe it as like definitely not a top tier law school, I guess we'll say, and going to law school at night itself is not Very, common for the kind of job she's in today.

And I, I asked her, I was like, do you think it held you back? Not having gone to one of the big name law schools. On the one end, she's like, I'm here. I am a partner here. So [01:44:00] no, it didn't because I got here in the amount of time that I said, but she was like, but there's definitely times where it's In some careers, like people that say college school you go to doesn't matter are wrong. It

does, but issues like there's times when I'm sitting in a table and everybody knows that there's a Harvard and Yale and a Princeton, and I'm over here with. I can't remember the exact, so I, I'm over here with my like Knight law school, but we're all sitting at the same table.

So kind of you tell me. And that is again, one of those things where I'm like, I don't know exactly how I would advise a kid to proceed in that regard. I think I would try to say, try to take a little bit of the pressure off yourself that first year into college that the idea that the decision you make about college when you're 18 is the be all end all.

That's not accurate. But it's also true that [01:45:00] there's this kind of, you could work your absolute tail off and do everything right and end up exactly where someone who had a lot more fun on the journey

Corey: Oh, sure.

Emily: and is, in that exact same spot. If you are hoping to like conquer the world and be the president, the CEO, yeah, I would recommend you take the path of.

Absolute, do everything everywhere all at once all the time to the top. But there's like a ton of room. in the middle. You can stumble and still end up at the top. You can succeed every step of the way and be absolutely miserable and be, you know, someplace else. So I, I didn't come up with a perfect answer out of that, but I did find a lot of variation, I guess, across the

Corey: A lot of variance there For sure. Well, I think that's a good place to wrap it up. I mean, if you have any uh, final words for your listeners, 

Emily: I'm so appreciative of the 60 plus [01:46:00] people who gave their time and energy to speaking with me and spoke. I could not, I was just so grateful for how candid people were with me about. The highs and lows of their career. And I just, I really enjoyed talking to every single one.

And I, am especially thankful to my family and most especially thankful to you for supporting me through this. mission, so it's been really fun and I, feel like it's as good a time as any to, move on for now, unless I guess unless Oprah would like to talk to me

or maybe I have 

other ideas. 

Corey: you've done 

This has been real work, real life. The podcast that covers everything you wish you actually learned on career day. Thank you all so much for listening for coming on the show to talk with me and [01:47:00] all the notes of support. You can reach me@realworkreallifeatgmail.com.