On this episode of Real Work, Real Life, I’m talking with Tony Mantor. Tony has been working in the music industry in Nashville for more than 30 years, and is an established singer-songwriter, pianist, podcast host and record-charting music producer. We cover a lot of different components of working in the music industry, like how streaming has changed the industry for musicians and songwriters, the decision to focus on production and management rather than continuing to focus solely on his career as an artist, and the resiliency needed to succeed in this career. Last week, I brought another lens on the music industry, when I interviewed Kiara Laetitia, a Rock Singer, Manager and Coach. If you’re missed that one, and you’ve ever been curious about life working in the music industry, be sure to check out that episode too.
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Tony Music Industry
[00:00:00] Welcome to real work, real life, where I talk to real people about what they do for work and what that means for their lives. Today, I'm talking with Tony Mantor. Uh, Tony has been working in the music industry in Nashville for more than 30 years and is an established singer songwriter. Pianist podcast, host and record charting music producer.
We cover a lot of different components of working in the music industry. By cow streaming has changed the industry for musicians and songwriters. The decision to focus on production and management, rather than continuing to focus solely on his career as an artist. And the resiliency needed to succeed in this line of work.
Last week. I brought another lens on the music industry. When I interviewed Kiarra at Latisha. A rock singer manager and coach. So if you miss that one and you've ever been curious about life working in the music industry, be sure to check out that episode two. So let's get into it.
Emily: Thank you so much for being here, Tony.
Tony: Yeah. Thanks for having me. I appreciate it.[00:01:00]
Emily: So what do you do for work?
Tony: I'm a producer, developer manager here in Nashville. I record people. I get them ready for labels or radio, and then I'll manage their career to make sure that , they take the right path so they don't make any missteps. They could hurt them along the way.
Emily: Oh, that's so interesting. So how did you get into it? What interested you about it initially? Um,
Tony: Well at an early age, I started. Playing piano. My mother had an old beat up piano that was in the house, and I would go over and, jump on it and just hammer away. And then she decided that if I was gonna show that much interest, I might as well take and learn how to play. So I went and took piano lessons and I enjoyed it.
Then from there, I went to Berkeley College of Music in Boston and, and did some stuff there and learned about improv and just different things because I didn't want to be a teacher per se. I wanted to be more on the performance side. So I did that and [00:02:00] then I developed into recording and going to radio and performing and it just led me to keep going, and then I'll wound up in Nashville.
Emily: What was your degree from Berkeley College of Music in
Tony: I actually didn't get a degree. I went there for just some things that I thought that I needed to enhance and get a little bit better. So I went there and I took several different courses that would kind of give me that rounded out version of me that I wanted to be because.
Berkeley as, as a lot of other colleges are, are four year colleges. And you get your degree and you get your masters and, and then you can go teach and you can, you know, do so many different things. And I really didn't want put that much, and this may sound lazy, but I didn't wanna put that much effort into something that I didn't want to take and pursue on a bigger scale.
I wanted to be. A performer, so I just wanted to [00:03:00] learn certain little things that I thought would help me become a better performer, and that's why I went there.
Emily: That doesn't sound lazy at all. I mean, it's a lot of investment in both your time and money to get a full college degree. So if it's not gonna be a complete value add, then I think it makes sense to just, just get just what you need.
Tony: Well, you know, that's, that's so true because, because you can go out and spend a whole lot of money to get a piece of paper that says you, you're this. But ultimately, if you're not gonna use that, Piece of paper to get you where you want to be, then why not use what you can then build on that.
And that's kind of what I've done over the last, you know, 20 or so years.
Emily: Do you find that your path is. Somewhat typical of people you meet in the industry, or is it more common to meet people that get a full degree or is it more common to meet people that never get degrees or is it just all over the place?
Tony: It's all over the place. I've got friends of mine that, that have gone to college and got their degrees [00:04:00] and they're just fine. Excellent. Players here in Nashville that play on some of the biggest records that you hear on radio. Then there's others that, didn't get the degree, but they've got that, feel and that, way of, putting across what is needed so that they add to it.
And they played on a hit record as well. so I've got, I've got friends all over the place far as degrees and, no, degrees that, add their little piece to the project.
Emily: So what kind of personality do you think really thrives in. A music industry.
Tony: Well, you know, when I was first starting to go to Nashville to just find out what it was about, I went there because some friends of mine needed a ride. They didn't have good transportation, so. I took them down and I didn't know what to expect because I was in more of the pop rock top 40 music.
And even as much as I liked some country, I wasn't a huge country [00:05:00] fan. So I took them down and started meeting people and all of a sudden I'm going kinda like this. It's a laid back atmosphere. It's not like New York, Boston, la, you know. So I decided that, Nashville was a place to be.
So I tried, started traveling back and forth and recording and working on my music career through Nashville. But with that said, to answer your question, the personalities. Is all over the place because you've got, those wild personalities like David Lee Roth, you know, that just gets up there and just bounces all across the stage.
And then you've got those, artists that are more stoic, that just kind of stay in one spot, do what they do, and, you never know which one is going to. Move on. And a perfect story of that is, when I was in Nashville, there was a group of guys and we'd go to a local place that would have songwriters nights or they'd have [00:06:00] live music.
And I never went out and dressed too flashy. I wasn't one of those guys as that was gonna dress to bring attention to me if I wasn't on the stage. I tried to blend in and they would go and they'd have their bandanas and they'd have all those things going, and I would look at 'em and go, who are you? and they would say, well, you know, you've gotta stand out. If you're gonna make in this business, you gotta stand out. And now, 30 years later, I'm in the music business doing what I'm doing, and I don't know what they're doing.
Emily: You have to go your own way. Right. If that works for you, you know, if it's not you to be really flashy in that way, then you can't force it.
Tony: You've gotta create your own path. And, and I firmly believe that the listener the person that comes to see you perform, they come for your music. They come for the fact that They've adapted to what you are. So I think that if, I became something that I wasn't and [00:07:00] tried to become more flashy and more, more standout, I think that people would see that that's fake.
You know? And, I think that the best way is to just be yourself, whatever you are, and let people like it or not like it. But hopefully if you put out good quality projects, people will like it.
Emily: Yeah. Well, not to get too detailed too quickly, but what do you make typically per year, and do you have any kind of benefits or anything through your work, or do you work for yourself and sort of manage your benefits yourself as you need them?
Tony: Well I'm self-employed, so there are no benefits. You know, it's, whatever I can make, whatever I can do. And there is no cap. On what you can make Because it depends upon what you wanna do. I am one that's more. Defined in what I'm going to do. I don't go out there and try and be the one that records everybody that comes into town.
And the reason why is because there are so many people that will [00:08:00] record anybody that comes in, no matter what quality they are, because they're paying for the project to be done. Whereas I will listen to the project and then I. Look at where it can go. And if somebody comes to me that really can't sing or really is not all that good and I don't see a place for them, I will turn them down.
Whereas others will take 'em because it's a project. The old adage used to be, if you go to Nashville or New York or LA and you have to pay to record and everything, you're getting ripped off. That's so far from the truth because. That's kind of saying that if I, if somebody calls me up and says, how much would it cost me to do a production of a 12 song CD with all the musicians, background singers over dubs mixed down, complete, ready to make a cd, what's it gonna cost me to say that's a ripoff Is.
Comparing it to going to your auto mechanic and saying, I need you [00:09:00] to fix my engine. It's not working. What's it gonna cost to put new pistons and new plugs and all this in it? It's the same. It's a, it's a service. So if you are getting a service for a negotiated price, then it's not a ripoff unless someone is promising you something, they're not giving you.
So if you come to Nashville or New York or LA and you pay for something and they say, oh, I, I can see you being the next star and we're gonna get you on a major label, and you're gonna sell millions of records when they're lying because no one can project that. So I tell everyone I. No matter what they do, do your due diligence and do your homework and check the people out that you're gonna work with. Make sure that they are what they say they are.
They can do what they say they can do, and they don't promise you anything. That sounds too good to be true, because if it's too good to be true, it probably is.
Emily: Oh, absolutely. I, I can see that. So[00:10:00] for this next question, I think it would be helpful to know of the areas of work that you talked about, is one like primary for you, would you say? Or are they all kind of equally part of your, career?
Tony: Well, when I first moved to Nashville, I moved to Nashville because I had an opportunity. The people that I was working with that was producing me as a singer, they said to me, you know, why don't you get off the road, move to Nashville, get into the production, and do what we do because we are getting ready to retire.
You understand a good song, you understand a production, you know what to do. And I had to really do some soul searching and decide if I wanted to do that because I still. Had a viable chance of getting a label and getting out there and doing something. And then I realized that there's only a certain amount of people that make it to that superstar level, that make the millions and millions of [00:11:00] dollars and travel all over the world.
And then there's a certain amount of people that have success. It's limited success, but they still have hit records and do things. And then there are those people that. Never get known, but they still do enough to make a living in music. And then those that go out there and keep doing it, but never have a chance.
So I fell in the category of I had a chance to get on a major label, possibly I had a chance to continue my music as an artist, but that wasn't guaranteed. And I had a family. So I decided, you know, let's take the, the safest route. Which again, would seem to be the laziest way because you're taking a safer route than, than going out there and risking.
to become a star, as they say. So I took the safer route and I moved to Nashville so I could be around my family more. And, and I wasn't gonna be on the road and not have my kids growing up not to know me, cuz I had friends of mine that had hit records out there and they didn't have their [00:12:00] kids growing up to know 'em.
So I chose that. So when I moved to Nashville, I moved as a production development. All I was gonna do was produce people, help them get radio ready and at that time it was major label ready, something you pitched to major labels to hopefully get a deal then. it developed into a label because people found out that I knew the radio promoters, I knew how to get it done.
I knew all those people because I had done it myself when I was an independent recording artist. So I got to know all those people. So then it developed into that. And then once I got people going, then it went into its third stage, which became management where I manage their careers and made sure that they didn't make any missteps.
So I do all those three things now, which is a collective of what I do. To everybody, but before it started, I started out [00:13:00] doing one thing. Then it developed and it developed and evolved into what I am now.
Emily: Oh, so interesting. Yeah. Thank you for outlining that, that's such an interesting evolution of a career. I realize, I think I stopped you before you said generally how much you make and if it's easier since I, it's probably pretty variable. I. Maybe kind of a general over the years range of what you have made.
Tony: Well, you know, you can make, I mean, if you get a hit record as a writer, I mean, you can make yourself. You know, two, $300,000 offer him a record.
Tony: like back in the nineties I had an opportunity to have a song on, one of Garth Brooks records. if at that time, if if it had just been an album cut and never got released as a record, I could have made.
Quarter of a million. If it got released to the single, it could have been up to a million. Now that has changed. I mean now with streaming and, and all this unless you get a song [00:14:00] as a songwriter, unless you get a song on an artist that is performing and touring and selling merchandise, and part of that merchandise is CDs.
You're not gonna make that much money because streaming only makes you fractions of pennies per play rather than, rather than full pennies or dimes. so like, to give an example, and I'm gonna round it up cuz because it's like 9 cents and change. But, if I get a song on a record, I will make.
And I'm rounding this up 10 cents for every time that record is sold. So if it sells a million, then I get 10 cents times a million.
Now, if they don't release a record and they just put it on iTunes, unless they're a major star and they get millions of downloads, which the downloads will be the same as a record 10 cents.
So let's say I get somebody that's not a star and he or she only may get a few thousand downloads, then I get the 10 [00:15:00] cents. But let's say they get a million streams, I'm only getting a fraction of a penny. So streaming has really changed your income variables, and production wise depends on who you're working with, to what you can make, so, there is no limit on what a person can make.
I mean, you can make whatever you wanna make, so there is no definitive answer on what, you can make there. You know, if you say, oh, I wanna be a producer, this is what I can make. So depending upon what you do to where you go in the music, to how long you stay in it, to what you try and do, the money can be anything you want it to be.
Emily: Yeah, so probably pretty variable,
Did you find generally throughout your career that you felt comfortable that you had enough or was it a struggle sometimes in, Easy sometimes.
Tony: Well, sometimes, I mean, I had good years, you know, that it's like, whoa, this is good. and the perfect example of a bad year is a pandemic when the, the [00:16:00] pandemic destroyed. The entertainment business, it stopped all the shows. It stopped all the recording, it stopped everything.
And it is still lingering on even today. I know people that hire and put on different oldies shows, you know, with the doop singers of the sixties and seventies and people that are well known and. They are telling me that even today, that the venues are anywhere between 40 and 70% capacity,
Now if you look at all the. superstars that go out and do concerts, I mean, you can see them selling el these 20,000 seat arenas and, they're doing well. the people are going out for the stars, but they're not going out for the shows that are in the 250 to a thousand seat range. So a lot of people got used to sitting home.
On a Saturday [00:17:00] night watching Netflix and not worrying about having to deal with the traffic or, people or anything. And they have not come back yet, some of them. So it's still hurting, you know, in, in a lot of ways.
Emily: Yeah. So is it true to say that especially when streaming started recording, artists had to rely a lot more on touring and live shows, or are there other ways that they were able to make up that loss revenue?
Tony: The streaming hurt the songwriters,
uh, Now if the artist is out there performing, they're making money off from performances. They're making money off from merchandise. Merchandise includes, you know, hats, t-shirts you know, anything you can think of that's got their name on it. And it also includes CDs or, LPs or cuz vinyl's making a comeback now, so it includes all of that.
That's all merchandise. So where the songwriter makes the money is where the, it's either played on the radio and it's a hit record [00:18:00] that way, or it's. Sold at concerts. So that's the only way the songwriter makes money is percentages. they make their money on contingencies. sales, they don't make their money on immediate sales, although if you use like Harry Fox or some of those companies that collect the royalties for physical product, they pay for the physical product before they do on anything else.
So it's, kind of a different dynamic there. But, yeah, I mean, the streaming hurt a lot of people.
Emily: Yeah. Oh, that's so interesting. So thinking about your career, I'm sure this has varied a lot, but what are the hours and kind of schedule, like generally, were you able to work sort of whenever you wanted to work or were there. Particular times that it seemed like all, recording artists wanted to record or needed help being managed.
Is it sort of always on type of job?
Tony: Well management [00:19:00] is a situation of your. Pretty much on call most of the time because you're managing a person's career. So if they're out on a show and it's 10 o'clock at night and they've got a problem and it's a business problem, then I could get a call. It doesn't happen often, but I could.
So management really has no defined hours. Although I know some managers that they, they try and stay Monday through Friday, nine to five, and, and then only on emergencies do you call me nights or weekends, which is good and I'm kind of that way, but if someone needed me and they've got a question, pick up the phone and call me now that's so up in the air because, some people, they've gotta record.
In a certain week because they got a vacation or, or they work and they play or they, they're not always performing. Some people, if they're performing artists, they're out there doing tours in the summertime. So they're not gonna be recording. They're gonna be recording through the winter.
So it just [00:20:00] varies. Independence. Lots of times they'll record when they want to record.
Emily: Yeah. Oh, that's so interesting. So, well, thinking about that, you probably don't have an average day, would you say, but if you do have sort of. Of an average working day, what might it look like?
Tony: My average working day can be anywheres from one o'clock, two o'clock in the afternoon to midnight. A lot of my work is done later in the day, into the night. Now, if I'm talking with someone overseas, then it could be mid-morning phone calls because we got six or seven hours or eight hours, whatever the difference in time may be.
So it varies, the actual, like, working on the project and everything, usually that's afternoon and evenings, because that's when a person's voice is more outgoing and, and ready to sing,
Emily: I never
Tony: o'clock You have to look at it from a dynamic of, in the morning they're gonna have that scratchy throat or whatever.[00:21:00]
But in the afternoon, hopefully they've, they've loosened their vocal chords up enough to where they can get out there and sing. And now some people can sing in the morning, you know, but most we try and keep it in the afternoon evening.
Emily: That is so interesting. I realized that the other day when I rerecorded an intro and it sounded like two different people. I'd recorded one at 11 at night and one at eight in the morning and I had to like scrap one end because it truly sounded like two different people on the recording. So I guess that makes sense.
Emily: If you were giving advice to someone who's listening to your career and saying, oh, this is so interesting to me. Would you have any advice for anyone starting out, like particular training or a place to start pursuing internships or anything along those lines as just where to get started if they have no idea?
Tony: Well, there's a college down here in Nashville called Belmont and they have a lot of courses on business and, production and engineering and all that. I'm a voting member of the Grammy's, so I did a thing this, past [00:22:00] year where they call it Grammy u and i, took on a, guy that wanted to learn more about the business and I went over some things with him and everything.
There's so much involved in this business that people have no clue, and I tell everybody that they have to understand that. It's not like the movies, you know, this is real life in the movies. You see people coming down in Nashville and, and going down and, and playing in a bar, and then all of a sudden a producer comes in say, oh man, I really like you.
Let's, let's, let's make a recording. It doesn't happen that way.
Emily: That would be nice.
Tony: Yeah, it would be nice. But that's just not reality. Reality is you go out there, you pay your dues. You drive up and down the, roads in a beat up old van. You play the dives. You play the, the nice places and you create a following and you build it.
Even America's Got Talent and American Idol and, all [00:23:00] those shows. It's not the way they perceive it. I mean, I have a friend of mine that went on the Voice. And did very well, made it through, oh, probably three quarters of the show before being voted off and everybody thought, oh,
you're gonna be discovered. This is all so good and everything. And a year later, that person was singing at the VFW Hall in front of 25 people. You know, it's not. The way people perceive it to be. Now if you go on America's Got Talent and Voice and, American Idol, can you get discovered to the point of where you can be performing and you can do things?
Yeah, you can, but it's not going to. Transform you into a superstar overnight. It takes time. Even with those TV shows, the TV show gives a lot of exposure, but sometimes it doesn't give you the knowledge of actually doing the [00:24:00] job, learning how to do it. Being developed, getting that, time under your belt so that when you go into a situation, you know how to handle it so that you don't get screwed, and so you don't get taken advantage of.
There's so many facets of the business that you have to be aware of and sometimes they paint this pretty picture that's just not there.
Emily: That's so interesting. I have a million more questions coming outta that, but I bet it's probably novel length. But if you have anything very specific of the, like, things you need to learn about really being in the business, I would love to hear it.
Tony: Well, what I tell everyone, no matter what they want to do, if they want to be a producer, if they wanna be an engineer, if they want to be a. A singer, they want to be a star., I tell them to learn their craft.
Do their homework and when they go do something, make sure that what they do is the very best possible product [00:25:00] that they can put out, because that is going to be their measuring stick. So if, if someone hears what you're doing and it's not the best, they're gonna look to someone else, that is the best.
Emily: Right. Focus on the work first.
Tony: And a perfect example of that, when, oh, several years ago. I had a friend of mine that liked what I was doing. I had played on a project and I, I was recording some stuff and he told me to call this person and talk to him. I didn't know who the person was, so when I called him, it turned out he was blondie's manager.
Tony: So I'm going, whoa, that's pretty cool. Blonde manager. So I sent him the project and he called me up and he goes, man, I really like what you did. Your project is probably the third best product I've had all year long. And I'm going, oh [00:26:00] man, I'm, this is cool. So I said, when do we work? When we start working?
He goes, it wasn't the best. He goes, I just don't have the time to work with people that aren't right where they need to be yet. He goes, you've got some development you need, you've got these, these things that you need to eat, and I don't have the time to do that. And I was kind of pissed at him, you know, because it's like, okay, you just built me up to tear me down.
But but then I, I, thought of an instant when I went to Berkeley, I went into my improv teacher. He says, play me a song. And I was classically trained pianist. So I played Beethoven, Moonlight Sonata, and I nailed it. I felt really good about it. He looked at me and he goes, good job.
And he, he says, this is the book we're gonna learn from. And it was the big note for beginners of piano.
I looked at him, I'm going, That was my first book that I learned when I first went to my first piano teacher. And he looked at me and he goes, then you should know it.[00:27:00]
Emily: Oh, that is rough. People are honest in this industry.
Tony: And, and then he went on to teach me more things than I ever thought I could ever learn from that book that I'd already learned from. So I thought of that when the manager told me that I wasn't quite ready yet, and I, even though I was mad after I had a chance to think about it, I'm going, okay.
I learned a lot from a book that. That I've already learned and he was right because the more I delved into it, the more I, kept going, the more I learned that I needed to learn more. And I understood that to do those things. It's a time process. I mean, I do that now. If somebody comes to me and they're, good.
I'll tell 'em. You know, you need another six months to a year of doing this before you're ready for me. And that's not being mean to them. It's just go out there and do your due diligence and work to become better because you've always got to be the best [00:28:00] version of yourself that you can give.
and I've had those things happen to me along the way that made me think. And I had two choices, get pissed off and give up or get mad and continue and so I continued, but that's what you have to do. You always have to be the best version of yourself that you can give to people. So they want to use you or have you to be part of what they're going to be doing.
If you can't give that to 'em, then they're gonna look someplace else. So, Anyone that thinks they want to get in this music business, they've got to go out and they've really gotta put the work in because you can't slide on perfection when you put something out there that's got to be that good. If you slide, let something slide by and all of a sudden somebody hears it and they say, oh man, that sucks.
You know? Then they're gonna look at who let that slide by and they're gonna look at you because you did it. So there's a lot to it and people have to be ready to it because it's not, again, it's not like the [00:29:00] movies. You just go in and lay down something. Then all of a sudden you, it's great.
Emily: That honest feedback can sting so terribly, but if you can really look at it honestly and take something out of it, how valuable. I mean, I, I think we could all use more honest feedback from people
Tony: Well, you know, It all comes down to the personality. That's hearing the feedback. If you've got thin skin, I tell everybody, if you have thin skin, you've got two choices. Grow thicker skin or go home and do something else because this, this business is brutal. You have to stop and think.
People that listen to your music, they're not objective, they're subjective. They're not going to listen to it objectively say, I don't really care for this, but it's really good in this, and the piano player did this, or whatever. They're not gonna dissect it in that kind of way to where they can say, okay, that was really well done.
Even though I don't like it, they're gonna be very subjective and say, well, that sucks
because it's not their [00:30:00] taste.
So if that's the case, There's nothing wrong with that because that's the way people are. That's the way we are with our music. Now. I can hear something and say, it's not my, cup of tea, but wow, they did a great job.
and I can pat 'em on the back for it. Doesn't mean I'd work with 'em, but I can at least say that good job. But most people that are on the buying end, that's gonna go out and download your song or buy your CD or whatever they're gonna do, they're very subjective. They either like it or they don't.
So you've gotta make sure it's the best.
And then when you get the critique, live with it. Learn from it.
Emily: Yep. Oh man. So what are some things you love about this work, especially if you think people might find it surprising?
Tony: Well, the biggest thing that I like about what I do is the creative process. The creative process is, What drives me because I get to take something that [00:31:00] someone would hear with just a guitar vocal and they'd say, oh, there's no way that's gonna be any good, and I can take and do my magic to it.
By putting the right players on it, arranging it properly, getting the singer to sing it correctly, getting the background vocals to add their thing, making sure that all the little nuances in there. Then mix it down and turn it into something that hopefully can be gold. so that's the beauty of it.
The creative process, the ugly part of my business is the business because this music business is a business. It's not something that you can just go out there and say, oh, I think I'm gonna be in the music business today. Because there's a reason why they put , the word business behind music.
It is a business. It's, it's about spending money, putting money into something, hopefully going out there, selling it, and at the end of the day, you've made a little bit of a profit off from what you invested.
Emily: Yeah. Oh, that's so interesting. Well, Tony, this is [00:32:00] the last question I have for you. And it's, what is one piece of advice generally about work would you give your younger self?
Tony: My younger self it would be just to continue the path, keep building, keep growing, keep learning. Because you never can learn enough. There's always something that you can learn every day that can maybe change your perspective a little bit so that you look at things slightly different, and then when you look at it slightly different, you can create something that might just make a difference.
Emily: I love that, Tony. So how can people find you? Do you have any projects that you wanna share so that our listeners can catch up with you?
Tony: Well, if, anyone remembers uh, happy days, I'm working with uh, Ralph Mouth, which is Donny most. He's a uh, singer, kinda like Frank Sinatra. Bobby Darren, big band. You know, really good. Got a project going with him. Glen Campbell's daughter, Debbie. I've got a project going with her. [00:33:00] And then I've got a project of my own that I'm doing to bring more awareness to the autistic community because it's misunderstood.
And, and I think that, we need more understanding. So I've got a project out there that's, You know, creating some goodwill and, and hopefully continues to so they can, find me at tonymantor.com. They can find email@example.com cuz all the social media platforms at Tony Mantor.
So I'm pretty available.
Emily: That's great. Well, I will also put those all in the show notes so people can find them easily. But thank you so much for making time to talk with me. I just really enjoyed this conversation
Tony: That was great. I appreciate it.
Thanks for joining me. If you liked the show, please rate and review on iTunes and Spotify. And please share with a friend. You can also follow the podcast on Instagram, [00:34:00] LinkedIn, Facebook, or ticktock. And if you'd like to be interviewed here or there's a particular job you'd like to learn about, please reach firstname.lastname@example.org.